Curse

Ashley Twig · Jul 08, 2005, 08:26 AM // 08:26

You actually have to read?

Arica Stormbane · Jul 08, 2005, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead Weight

For rant #7: My idea of the ring of fire is that it use to be Orr and that the ring of fire is what the Vizier had created in destroying the Charr, how they got so deep I have no idea, but that was what I got.

Most definately not - if you go to the docks/beach in Lion's Arch there's a woman called Jiaju Tai and she tells you that she comes from a far away kingdom and gives away some more interesting infos on the way:

As you can see on the above screenshot Orr has sunken into the see - but she also says that Cantha lies past the ruins of Orr... So there should be some remains of the former kingdom even though most of it prabaly is playing Atlantis right now.
So it may really be the area west of the Chrystal Desert and east of the Ring Of Fire:

BTW: Maybe we'll be able to visit Cantha in chapter 2... Could be that this is a hint to some of the new areas...

Rethan Soulfire · Jul 08, 2005, 09:19 AM // 09:19

I thought the plot was doing ok up until rurik gets owned because to that point you had an objective and a leader, you were saving Ascalon's people from the charr as best you could to later go back and kick their asses out of town after you managed to help them rebuild in kryta and find strength. Additionally Ambassador Zain is a very benevolent in that he's quite Chaotic Good towards ascalon and your character, while the king is very stubborn and while not ill-meaning he's just ignorant. So once Rurik dies you get the ascalon people to Kryta, mission accomplished, now its time to rebuild the army, ally with kryta and go wipe out some Charr.

Wrong, Ambassador Zain is part of an organization that murders innocents, and they control Kryta. However you don't find this out until after you're halfway into the wilderness helping the mantle kill undead and round up chosen. You find yourself in the jungle, facing an immediate moral dilemna, the mantle kill innocents and the shining blade do not.

So now your character is "fleeing" from the mantle all through the next missions and unable to talk with your countrymen. Up until now I was with the story alright. Once you get to riverside mission, I found it odd that the guy you saved to give the leader of the white mantle sceptre for safe keeping, is apparently enlighted to the point that he understands the mantle are bad and gives you the Sceptre of Orr? So why didn't he give it to you in the first place/why isn't he a member of the Shining Blade? He shows you the way out the back so he is benevolent to your character. This was the first plot stupid for me. We should have killed a boss, or Dinas should have been better written.

And now the stupidest plot twist in the game, give the sceptre to the Vizier, who it doesn't take a rocket scientest to assume is less than virtuous. This mission was very poorly written way to get you to the desert to learn about the prophecy. Give the all powerful staff to the bad man.

As for the idea of ascension, being the conquering of one's self to be judged before the true gods (Lyssa,Dwayna,grenth etc). Glint is much their prophet on Tyria in my mind. I was ok with this, I was ok with all the filler story about how different groups failed because of selfishness, greed, vanity etc. Human flaws. Your character transcends these flaws, showing selflessness, and teamwork to beat the missions.

Once you prove you are a champion of humanity and not its scourge or simply too weak, your character heads back into the chaos of the world (as the desert is disconnected by an overland link in the game) to help those in immediate need when you last left, your shining blade friends and the deldrimor. You find out the unseen gods are not really gods, but a race of being with a lot of power, in relation to your average human they would be like a demi-god. This idea is set up fine, and the spectral agony skill as much illustrates this to us.

On and on we go, the mursaat are revealed and we must find a way to rescue our friends, which we do although saidra dies really stupidly was very poorly written, we eventually get our friends team up with the Deldrimor and make an offensive at Thunderhead which succeeds, we defend the king and the keep and we slay the head of the white mantle trying to finish us off as we are obviously the biggest threat to the plan we are the chosen after all who've ascended and been seen a good light by REAL gods. Gods beyond the mursaat. We fight beside undead, of which the good race dwarf king has no problem, this is stupid. The ressurection of Rurik would have been better if they didn't show the undead skeleton with a Fiery Dragon Sword follow the lich into the portal (this spoiled it 3 missions from the end)

Soooo we end up on the fire island with our good friend CrazyMcCrazyEyes the vizier.
Our objective is to destroy the mursaat cause they are evil at least in the fact they kill innocents. Now this is the main part I'm unsure of or they do not tell you. Why is the mursaat home base on tyria located at this Gate of Komalie which locks up the Titans, just a destructive force? Do they leech power from the gate? Why do they sustain the gate? So the titans don't kill them? Their motivation falls apart here for me. So we beat up the mursaat, and we bust the seal on the Gate of Komalie, this frees the titans, and I guess it can be assumed we killed all the mursaat, or they vanish in some Titan devouring flash. Who knows.

Now the Vizier is the Lich (dumb), he should have been a servant not the lich himself. And in one mission we man handle the titans, Rurik and the Lich. End of story.

The resolution is very poor, and the ending is so fast, and the lich and titans are so weak we end them in one mission, they felt extremely anti-climactic. The story started good and had strong character presence (Rurik). They killed him off and strung us along through so many attempts at plot twists that by the end, we are expecting twists because they have happened at regular intervals. (every 3 or 4 missions).

Plot twists are great, and multiple twists together are also good. But the best usage of a plot twist with multiple facets is to dump them on your audience repeatedly and quickly at the end while masking their existance the whole way. Much like the Usual Suspects, and some good caper flicks, where everyone is not who they seemed to be and everyone turns on eachother.

This has turned so long no one will read it.
In summary, they plot twist you to death at regular intervals which make them not surprising, and the "ultimate" badguy of the story is so weak that you destroy him in 30 minutes.

Ninna · Jul 08, 2005, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandy Memory

Did anyone notice the White Mantle turn out to be the good guys, and the Flameseeker Prophecies are bad?

The White Mantle spend their lives protecting the rest of the world from the Titans, and thats all. They made quite the living doing it too, nice cities, nice armor, had the monsters under control, protected the Sceptre of Orr, etc.

and what happened to the sceptre at the end?

I disagree

White Mantle was just a different fanatical faction who obeyed whatever the Mursaat wanted

the only reason Mursaat wanted the door of Komalie sealed was self preservation

Mursaat would have been invincible in Tyria otherwise

its never clear what the Mursaats ultimate goals were
- all we know is that Mursaat are enemies of the Seer's race
(both of whom came from the Rift)

alot of discussion of lore here
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...8&page=1&pp=25

Rethan Soulfire · Jul 08, 2005, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninna

I disagree
White Mantle was just a different fanatical faction who obeyed whatever the Mursaat wanted.

I don't disagree with this statement, why would the mursaat want ambassador Zain to get the survivor's of Ascalon to Kryta and why would he suggest the idea to Rurik. If the Charr are in with the Mursaat like the Mantle, what motivation to "save" the Ascalon refuge's is there? This is one of the plot problems with the Mursaat. They in essence promote our travel to Kryta with Ambassador Zain, and we bring their end. Why would they have wanted us to leave Ascalon? Zain should have never existed, especially with the benevolence of his quests.

Ninna · Jul 08, 2005, 10:16 AM // 10:16

the Mursaat were "unseen gods" to most of the mantle

many of the mantle were just doing the routine tasks of diplomacy among their own race (with Orr gone, only Kyrta and Ascalon is left)

I dont think theres an easy way to identify whos "chosen"

biggest plot hole in the game?
The D'Alessio Seaboard, Divinty Coast mission

where you use the Eye to identify the Chosen

unless the Eye wasnt doing that at all - and just selecting random victims

Ninna · Jul 08, 2005, 10:34 AM // 10:34

I overlooked the post about Cantha

nice catch

Narcissus · Jul 08, 2005, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jadrius Lifebane

Okay, I just beat the game.

I have a few questions (story-related).

1) Ascalonians... I guess I completely ditched them after getting them to set up camp in the middle of horrible monsters, with no effective guards or walls. I guess Rin/Ascalon City/ et al were completely forgotten and abandoned and left to their fate.

2) White Mantle... It seems that their continued onslaught of the Krytans can continue unhindered. I killed a lot of Mursaat, yes, but to my knowledge, I did not eliminate them.

3) The Shining Blade... Goddamn hippies, I don't even know what to say about them, or why they exist. What happened to them? I just gave them the middle finger after I did the smash-and-grab for the Scepter of Orr, which the White Mantle had been properly safeguarding for years?

4) The Vizier... I must have missed the reason why I was taking this to him. Is the Shining Blade in league with him? What? I don't know.

5) Ascension... What..the..****.. Okay, so, let's break this up further.
a) Orrians. They man the "tournament games" that you go through to try to "ascend". They're this ghostly race that all FAILED to ascend. So... who the hell was running the trials when THEY were trying to ascend? What WERE their trials??
b) The Forgotten. Who were they? What did they do? Where did they come from? Why were they running ascension trials? Are they in league with the orrians, despite constantly trying to kill them?
c) Okay, so I killed my doppleganger. "You have ascended!" Nothing changes. What happened, did I just have like the gods come by and have tea with me and clap me on the back and say "Great job, buddy."
d) I don't get "Glint". What's their deal? Why do they exist? I was going to the southern shiverpeaks anyway.

6) The dwarves. Did we kill or not kill off an entire race of stone summit dwarves? I don't know if they're gone or not. If so, it seems like the Deldrimor dwarves are the only race that benefitted from anything I did.
ALSO! Why the hell can King Jarlis Ironhammer and Brechnar see the Mursaat? I thought only I could, because I was somehow "special" from ascending and having true sight. In this regard, why can people who have not ascended still see the Mursaat?

7) Isle of Fire. Everyone knows about it, it seems, but they don't know that it's a place swarming with Mursaat? Did this random alien race just come and set up camp on the volcano? What's the deal with that? Also, what's with the OTHER alien race, the Seer, and his eidolon pet? It's like "the Cthulhic gods are invading your planet. Merge with this GOOD cthulhic god to combat them!" It's very whacked.

8) So, the one thing I do is unleash the fire titans for the undead lich to control and destroy the world with. Then I kill him off and the titans, presumably, die off with him? Then I go back to the world and claim to be a hero, for fixing a threat that I created?

9) Conclusion. Everyone gets ****ed right in the ass by my half-hearted antics as a "hero", except perhaps the dwarves, who will live in peace now that their rival dwarves have met only genocide by my axe.

10) I am a horrible, horrible person. Alternatively, the Guild Wars story is completely lacking on all counts.

I've got work in 10 mins, So please pardon my bluntness and lack of detail.

All of those questions are answered by A) talking to the NPC's in each area particularly lore npcs in the mission areas. B) doing the quests marked Primary and to a lesser extend the non primary quests. C) doing *some* of the bonuses.

EDIT: Will answer them individually when I get home.

NoChance · Jul 08, 2005, 05:12 PM // 17:12

a couple of things...

about ambassador Zain -- anyone remember that quest where the Krytans were selling something in Ascalon; the Ascalon leaders were suspicious, and we brought one piece of the merchandise to be evaluated (i believe at Serenity temple). was it ever resolved what that merchandise was actually for?

as for the Mursaat.... seems like they just are preserving themselves...
there's this prophecy that they will be destroyed by the chosen -- so they, naturally, kill all chosen.

not a great situation for them to be in... but who wouldn't do the same (assuming you believed the prophecies)? i don't find them to be that evil.

Kashrlyyk · Jul 08, 2005, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rethan Soulfire

I thought the plot was doing ok up until rurik gets owned because to that point you had an objective and a leader, you were saving Ascalon's people from the charr as best you could to later go back and kick their asses out of town after you managed to help them rebuild in kryta and find strength. Additionally Ambassador Zain is a very benevolent in that he's quite Chaotic Good towards ascalon and your character, while the king is very stubborn and while not ill-meaning he's just ignorant. So once Rurik dies you get the ascalon people to Kryta, mission accomplished, now its time to rebuild the army, ally with kryta and go wipe out some Charr.

Wrong, Ambassador Zain is part of an organization that murders innocents, and they control Kryta. However you don't find this out until after you're halfway into the wilderness helping the mantle kill undead and round up chosen. You find yourself in the jungle, facing an immediate moral dilemna, the mantle kill innocents and the shining blade do not.

So now your character is "fleeing" from the mantle all through the next missions and unable to talk with your countrymen. Up until now I was with the story alright. Once you get to riverside mission, I found it odd that the guy you saved to give the leader of the white mantle sceptre for safe keeping, is apparently enlighted to the point that he understands the mantle are bad and gives you the Sceptre of Orr? So why didn't he give it to you in the first place/why isn't he a member of the Shining Blade? He shows you the way out the back so he is benevolent to your character. This was the first plot stupid for me. We should have killed a boss, or Dinas should have been better written.

And now the stupidest plot twist in the game, give the sceptre to the Vizier, who it doesn't take a rocket scientest to assume is less than virtuous. This mission was very poorly written way to get you to the desert to learn about the prophecy. Give the all powerful staff to the bad man.

As for the idea of ascension, being the conquering of one's self to be judged before the true gods (Lyssa,Dwayna,grenth etc). Glint is much their prophet on Tyria in my mind. I was ok with this, I was ok with all the filler story about how different groups failed because of selfishness, greed, vanity etc. Human flaws. Your character transcends these flaws, showing selflessness, and teamwork to beat the missions.

Once you prove you are a champion of humanity and not its scourge or simply too weak, your character heads back into the chaos of the world (as the desert is disconnected by an overland link in the game) to help those in immediate need when you last left, your shining blade friends and the deldrimor. You find out the unseen gods are not really gods, but a race of being with a lot of power, in relation to your average human they would be like a demi-god. This idea is set up fine, and the spectral agony skill as much illustrates this to us.

On and on we go, the mursaat are revealed and we must find a way to rescue our friends, which we do although saidra dies really stupidly was very poorly written, we eventually get our friends team up with the Deldrimor and make an offensive at Thunderhead which succeeds, we defend the king and the keep and we slay the head of the white mantle trying to finish us off as we are obviously the biggest threat to the plan we are the chosen after all who've ascended and been seen a good light by REAL gods. Gods beyond the mursaat. We fight beside undead, of which the good race dwarf king has no problem, this is stupid. The ressurection of Rurik would have been better if they didn't show the undead skeleton with a Fiery Dragon Sword follow the lich into the portal (this spoiled it 3 missions from the end)

Soooo we end up on the fire island with our good friend CrazyMcCrazyEyes the vizier.
Our objective is to destroy the mursaat cause they are evil at least in the fact they kill innocents. Now this is the main part I'm unsure of or they do not tell you. Why is the mursaat home base on tyria located at this Gate of Komalie which locks up the Titans, just a destructive force? Do they leech power from the gate? Why do they sustain the gate? So the titans don't kill them? Their motivation falls apart here for me. So we beat up the mursaat, and we bust the seal on the Gate of Komalie, this frees the titans, and I guess it can be assumed we killed all the mursaat, or they vanish in some Titan devouring flash. Who knows.

Now the Vizier is the Lich (dumb), he should have been a servant not the lich himself. And in one mission we man handle the titans, Rurik and the Lich. End of story.

The resolution is very poor, and the ending is so fast, and the lich and titans are so weak we end them in one mission, they felt extremely anti-climactic. The story started good and had strong character presence (Rurik). They killed him off and strung us along through so many attempts at plot twists that by the end, we are expecting twists because they have happened at regular intervals. (every 3 or 4 missions).

Plot twists are great, and multiple twists together are also good. But the best usage of a plot twist with multiple facets is to dump them on your audience repeatedly and quickly at the end while masking their existance the whole way. Much like the Usual Suspects, and some good caper flicks, where everyone is not who they seemed to be and everyone turns on eachother.

This has turned so long no one will read it.
In summary, they plot twist you to death at regular intervals which make them not surprising, and the "ultimate" badguy of the story is so weak that you destroy him in 30 minutes.

Very good points! The death of Saidra is so stupid that I would like to see her well and alive again in the addon! Do not care how that is explained!

JasonJLore · Jul 08, 2005, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

The resolution is very poor, and the ending is so fast, and the lich and titans are so weak we end them in one mission, they felt extremely anti-climactic. The story started good and had strong character presence (Rurik). They killed him off and strung us along through so many attempts at plot twists that by the end, we are expecting twists because they have happened at regular intervals. (every 3 or 4 missions).
Plot twists are great, and multiple twists together are also good. But the best usage of a plot twist with multiple facets is to dump them on your audience repeatedly and quickly at the end while masking their existance the whole way. Much like the Usual Suspects, and some good caper flicks, where everyone is not who they seemed to be and everyone turns on eachother.
This has turned so long no one will read it.
In summary, they plot twist you to death at regular intervals which make them not surprising, and the "ultimate" badguy of the story is so weak that you destroy him in 30 minutes.

Thank you for explaining what I just didn't have the time or motivation to explain. I'm not sure how many here have seen "The Crying Game" or "The Shawshank Redemption" - both good examples of this type of genre.
Of course most of us are not looking for cinematic virtues in an RPG but one would expect a halfway decent storyline. I mean Diablo's scripting was admittedly cliched but at least it was fun and made perfect sense.

Ninna · Jul 08, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rethan Soulfire

Why is the mursaat home base on tyria located at this Gate of Komalie which locks up the Titans, just a destructive force? Do they leech power from the gate? Why do they sustain the gate? So the titans don't kill them? Their motivation falls apart here for me.

I think it does make sense

the Mursaat believe the FlameSeeker Prophecies that foretold their demise
(the chosen will open the door of Komalie)

so in their best interest,
the Mursaat create a stronghold at the door to prevent that

Ninna · Jul 08, 2005, 09:42 PM // 21:42

I wish I could find the printed text of the Flame Seeker prophecies somewhere

the lich rattles it off in some of the ending movies but I havent found anyone posting the "known" text from mission ending movies

talking to npcs wont help either

seems like Glint, Seer, Mursaat, and Lich are the only ones in Chapter 1 who know the prophecy

Jadrius Lifebane · Aug 09, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

I finally revisited this thread, and am imprsesed by all the response it's garnered.

I was completely unaware of much of this.

Thanks for shedding light on it!

I wonder if someone has put forward the effort to put all mission text into a single sit-down-and-read format.

Phades · Aug 09, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Long story short, everyone is bad in varied degrees and you merely maintain the peace. There appears to be little to no point to the other "races" like the centaurs, who are just on the sideline for all these events and apperantly anyone who isnt already dead or not human already knows everything that is going to happen.

The only things really explained while going through the game is how kryta survived by using the power of the mursaat. Just about everything else in the game concerning plot just leaves a large question mark.

neoflame · Aug 09, 2005, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Orrians/Forgotten/Stone Summit are in the manual.

You go to Kryta because Rurik has a split with the king and, along with him, you lead a bunch of Ascalon refugees to Kryta. When you reach Kryta, you do stuff to help them (because they are offering your people refuge) (D'Alessio, Divinity), but end up finding about the Shining Blade (The Wilds), and the White Mantle sacrificing Chosen to the "Unseen Ones" to try and prevent the Flameseeker Prophecies, which greatly upset their masters, the Unseen (Bloodstone Fen). As such, you begin helping the Shining Blade, and the White Mantle become your enemy (Aurora Glade). The Shining Blade make a deal with the strange Vizier of Orr, who promises to help the Shining Blade in exchange for the Scepter of Orr (Riverside Province, Sanctum Cay). However, Markis reveals himself as a traitor, and you are forced to escape from the White Mantle (Sanctum Cay), and Ascend in order to defeat the Mursaat (why this is is never really clearly explained.)

Ascension involves doing certain things, generally involving killing the Forgotten (the snake-people in the lore book) to get the attention of the gods. (Yay, genocide! :/) Ascending grants you access to the dragon Glint's lair, who tells you... err, something about you needing to go to the Ring of Fire to defeat the Mursaat, and your former allies (e.g. the Shining Blade and the dwarves) need your help... I think (The Dragon's Lair.)

From Droknar's Forge, you are told that 1) Evennia and Saidra have been captured, and 2) fighting the Mursaat is suicide. So, you go to free Evennia/Saidra, and search for an ancient Seer spoken of by mystical texts that can help you in the fight against the Mursaat (Ice Caves of Sorrow). Once you've freed Evennia and Saidra, they demand vengeance against Markis, so while you're looking for the Seer, you get to kill Markis, too (Iron Mine of Moladune). Anyway, now that you've finished helping the Shining Blade, and your armor is freshly infused with something from the Eidolon by the seer, it's time to repay your debt to the dwarves, since they let you go through their pass (unless you went through EA's... but... uhh... shut up

) (Thunderhead Keep). After generally saving your allies, off you go to the Ring of Fire to kill the Mursaat, because there's a secret weapon there...

So, after an assault on Mursaat bases there (Ring of Fire, Abbadon's Mouth), you reach the Door of Komalie, and the Vizier/Undead Lich backstabs you and releases the Titans to destroy Tyria. So then, of course, you have to kill the Lich to reclose the Door of Komalie and retrap the Titans (Hell's Precipice), completing the Flameseeker Prophecies.

The game's done. You can stop reading this and go back to grinding for skill points now.

Jaythen Tyradel · Aug 09, 2005, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Yeah, some of the plot points dont make much sense in a way. However, this is chapter 1. Chapter 2 might pick up the pieces of the first story; like what happened in Ascalon after you left, the remnants of the Shining blade and the White Mantle. SUmmer update shows that the evil dwarves still have power and are amassing more power.

Shusky · Aug 09, 2005, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Yep, the plot is rather incoherent.

I especially love it how two kingdoms are blown to pieces but the rest of the world is unaffected. You'd at least expect a tsunami or a really cold summer, but that's kinda forgivable I guess.

The better thing is Kryta-Ascalon war. Can someone logically explain how and why did two kingdoms separated by giant mountain chain and connected by utterly nothing war with each other? Obtain passage tickets from Jalis? To get to a bloodstone 1,000,000 miles away?

Also, did anyone else get to Ventari's Refuge before doing The Wilds/Bloodstone Fen? For half of the maguuma, I was simultaneously killing white mantle, pursuing shining blade, collaborating with shining blade, and being a white mantle knight. They should block this somehow

Edit: and I don't get the Forgotten either. On one hand, two of them give you much help, on the other hand, you beat the living daylight out of them in all the missions. Some dialogue I skipped?

Allanon Dark · Aug 10, 2005, 12:39 AM // 00:39

yes, the story is lacking majorly. What i got from the previews was that the point of the game was to save Ascalon from the invading charr. Now when the prince decided to skip town and just screw over his fellow countrymen by dragging me with him i was a little surprised. for a prince he really isnt very loyal. i think he deserved to die.

after ascension i felt i should have gotten stronger or something, why not. didn't i go throught that hell at the thirsty river for something? didn't i? Ascension should have gotten me at least on elite skill and some sort of infused armor, weapon, etc.

as for that weird area 51 alien, i just wanna know what planet hes from. He's obviously not from here. Personally i would like to know where he came from and if we can go to them through those portals made by that wizard in the lore section of the book that came wiht the game.

Krank · Aug 10, 2005, 01:56 AM // 01:56

That was quite the funny post,